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 slide lock open on last round
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HamboD
Starting Member


14 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  12:08:16 AM  Show Profile Send HamboD a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, next question from newbie pistol/witness owner.
9mm/22lr combo
The pistol does not hold the slide open after the last round when using 22lr, which I understand is usual.
My inquisitive nature lead me to investigate why this should be.
It appears that it is only due to the 22lr mag having a spring that is too weak to move the slide lock up. There is a plastic tang that engages the underside of the lock, it moves up when the lock is manually raised.

My question is, what is the problem with either:-
1)putting in a new,stronger magazine spring, or
2) just stretching the existing spring slightly to add a little extra push when it is at its longest (i.e., mag is empty).

Honestly, the thought of stretching the spring makes me cringe a little (it reminds me of the cheap way to lower you car for that racing look by heating the springs until they sag).

Reading through the forum there are many experienced people out there, so what are your thoughts?

Thanks!

H2obouget
New Member



USA
73 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  12:37:29 AM  Show Profile Send H2obouget a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would look again.
The first gen .22 mags had a spot that LOOKED like it should push up the slide stop, but in fact it was part of the molded magazine not part of the follower that actually moved.
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HamboD
Starting Member



14 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  12:09:13 PM  Show Profile Send HamboD a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I recently purchased the pistol new, the date code is 2010/2011, so I presume the magazine is of the most recent design (not alaways a wise thing to do).
The plastic tang is attached to the follower. It moves down into the magazine when ammo is loaded and pushes up against the underside of the slide stop when the last is extracted from the mag, but does not move it. The follower is prevented from being at the top of its travel at this point.
When the slide stop is moved into the locked (up) position it allows the follower to move to the top of the magazine.
This is why I wondered about the strength of the spring in the magazine. It appears that a stronger spring would cause the follower to move the stop up (as the 9mm mag does).
I will attempt to upload a photo so that you can check for any differences in design.
One other thought/concern is, I have already had issues with feed of 22lr, and followed the excellent advise posted elsewhere on this forum regarding the conversion feed issues. How would an altered spring affect this.
I am a newbie to pistols having only shot shotguns, so please excuse me if these are basic.
Thanks
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H2obouget
New Member



USA
73 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  1:48:11 PM  Show Profile Send H2obouget a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm they seem to have changed it! COOL!

Yes stronger spring would help. BUT...
There is a spring that holds the slide stop pin in-place, that pushes down on the flat of the slide stop pin, which causes it to want to be level.
Your magazine spring needs to be able to over rid that spring pressure. And it is pretty considerable.

You can see that spring by taking the slide off and looking to the right of the top of the trigger.
If you weaken that spring...your slide stop pin might fall out.
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Rod Slinger
Moderator



USA
1332 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  2:07:40 PM  Show Profile Send Rod Slinger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HamboD....Please note that I have not worked on a magazine problem on a Witness conversion, but I have worked on Witness conversion units. So take this in consideration.

The Witness conversion like the Kimber and many others are always very close to not working due to the recoil force of the 22 round which must drive the slide rearward. Any changes that you do that slows the slide in its rearward travel will make the gun less reliable. Can you install a stronger mag spring without problems, I don't know but it is worth a try. I would not advise stretching the original spring as this will lead to it becoming weaker. You may want to bend the front of the spring as pictured in the Mag Mod. In this forum. You must be logged in to see this link.

The good news is you can reduce the weight of your hammer spring which will make the conversion run with more varieties of 22's and most likely over come a stronger mag spring. Don't go so light as to cause problems with firing the 9mm. Hope this helps. R S

Remembering Warren Center
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H2obouget
New Member



USA
73 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  2:33:21 PM  Show Profile Send H2obouget a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Rod,
Wouldn't it be easier to remove the excess area on the hammer so that the hammer spring was not forcing drag on the bottom of the slide
Since the initial recoil should move the hammer to the cocked position, all that excess hammer material in the corner forces drag on the slide causing rapid loss of the slides inertia.

Of course that would mean making sure that BOTH slides still attained a locked hammer.

But it was a thought.
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Rod Slinger
Moderator



USA
1332 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  10:23:51 PM  Show Profile Send Rod Slinger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HamboD.....The slide is intended to push the hammer past the single action notch and lower in onto the sear. IMO the extra travel that the hammer rides the slide is desirable and keeps the hammer from following the slide to the half cock notch. I know of no one that has done this so if you go down this road please let me know what is at the end of your journey. R S

Remembering Sketter Skelton
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billymarr
Starting Member



USA
34 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  01:45:21 AM  Show Profile Send billymarr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did that on the hammer more of a polish job and it helped quite a bit
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Rod Slinger
Moderator



USA
1332 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  08:29:24 AM  Show Profile Send Rod Slinger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
billymarr....I remember your work and I din not have a problem with it. What H2obouget is talking about is more than polishing. R S

Remembering Col. Jeff Cooper
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H2obouget
New Member



USA
73 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  11:18:47 AM  Show Profile Send H2obouget a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL Well it was more of a question without the proper punctuation then anything else.

And I was referring to the corner of the hammer.
I have a friend who had a 1911 that was built on parts. Once we got it up and "Running" it was having cycle issues.
I told him to take it to a gunsmith and have him look at it.
When he got it back, I was looking at it, and the only thing I saw that changed, and my buddy said it is what the gunsmith did change, was that corner of the hammer.
At full cock, after the sear point, the hammer was still projecting into the slides path, and was dragging the crap out of the bottom of the slide.
The smith took about 1/16 or so off the corner and it freed up the slide.

My .22 job that is on here included me polishing the underside of the slide AND polishing the corner of the hammer.
(why do people say "polish - BUT don't remove any metal" DO they KNOW what polishing is?) Sorry- watching a AGI video.

I agree that would be a drastic step, and should not be attempted with out knowing exactly what is being done.
It was a question of, "Wouldn't this work better then trying to lighten the hammer spring?"

In re-reading Rod's post, I see what he was saying, but I disagree with his assessment. I do not think that your issue is coming from the hammer spring.
I am willing to be that if you removed the slide form the frame, and reinserted the slide stop pin....you still could not get the follower engage hard enough to even lift the slide stop a little.
The slide stop spring it just to tight.
Part 36
You must be logged in to see this link.
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Rod Slinger
Moderator



USA
1332 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  1:48:11 PM  Show Profile Send Rod Slinger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H2obouget.....I love it when members disagree with me. I am a firm believer that all of us should question what we are told, this is how we learn. I can be wrong just like anyone else. Example for many years I thought the most important part of shooting a pistol was holding the front sight on target. This was the way I was taught and worst is the way I taught others. It was in the last 15 years that I learned the correct way.

H2obouget you are correct that HamboD's issue is not coming from the hammer spring. What I meant to state is by increasing the weight of the mag spring there will be more breaking force on the slide. The 22 conversion is close to not cycling do to lack of blow back force supplied by the 22 long rifle. The little 22 must move the mass of the slide back and cock the hammer. If you reduce the hammer spring weight you mill give this round a much better chance to over come the heaver mag spring. The bonus is you may now be able to shoot standard velocity 22's. I covered this in more detail in my post on relationships.
So where am I wrong? R S



Remembering Col. Jeff Cooper
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H2obouget
New Member



USA
73 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  9:04:14 PM  Show Profile Send H2obouget a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see what you are saying. And if it was a cycling issue over all...I would be in agreement with your post.
He never claimed a problem with the cycling of the gun. He only claimed an issue with the last shot hold open.

So what I disagree with is that for the last round hold open to work the mag spring has to have enough force to push the slide stop pin UP and that has no direct connection with the cycling of the slide.
Due to the design of the slide stop pin (flat surface that sits under the slide stop spring) you have to over come the force of the slide stop spring, trying to return the slide stop to a horizontal position.

The only parts involved in that process are:
The mag being in the correct position - Check! gun cycles and fires
The mag follower pushing up on the slide stop - Questioned by me
The slide stop operating properly - Unknown - considered it a given - never asked
The slide stop spring applying tension to the slide stop pin - Questioned by me.

What I posted was a side question related to the idea of reducing the hammer force in regards to the drag.
I think that we just have a confusion of two topics in one thread.
My bad.
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Rod Slinger
Moderator



USA
1332 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  12:54:53 AM  Show Profile Send Rod Slinger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
H2obouget Stated
quote:

What I posted was a side question related to the idea of reducing the hammer force in regards to the drag.
I think that we just have a confusion of two topics in one thread.
My bad.

I don't think you have a confusion of topics. I think I have a lack of ability in explaining my reasoning. It would help if I knew it you have ever shot a Witness Conversion 22 Long Rifle kit and have you read my post on relationships? You must be logged in to see this link.

I started out by telling HamboD that I had not worked on a mag problem on the Witness 22 conversion kit. You are 100% correct that HamboD's failure in the last round to hold the slide open rest in the upward force of the mag follower and/or the resistance of the slide stop to cycle up and catch the slide. HamboD wants to increase the poundage of the mag spring. If he does this most likely he will solve the last round slide hold open problem.

My concern is that the fix of just only working on the mag will cause a problem of feeding. This is why I offered the lighter weight hammer spring as a fix if he has failures to feed.

H2obouget Your thoughts? R S



Remembering Col. Jeff Cooper

Edited by - Rod Slinger on 09/02/2011 12:58:38 AM
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H2obouget
New Member



USA
73 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  02:26:56 AM  Show Profile Send H2obouget a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes I had a .22lr conversion slide that had binding issues in the cycle that I had to clean up, as well as cleaning up the extractor problem it had. AND it had feeding problems.
(I used your post on .22lr extractor issues to fix my problem - which is how I found the site in the first place)
And yes I read the Relationships article.
But I am not sure you could strengthen the mag spring that much in the .22. But I have not seen the newer springs, so maybe.
The older .22lr springs were simply a 6" 2 lb spring in a straight tube style coil. No oval. I was going to say that this could not be an issue as the upward force of a .22 spring could not get close to the upward force of a fully loaded 10mm mag....BUT........OH...RIGHT!

And I now see what you were trying to explain to him.
Excessive upward force of the mag spring pressing rounds into the bottom of the slide during the cycle, in addition to the hammer spring resistance = short stroke.
The blow back forces are different. There for the upward force of the mag follower has a direct impact on the cycle due to less power, even though it is a lighter slide.

Ok! I yield. 8P
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HamboD
Starting Member



14 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  07:52:51 AM  Show Profile Send HamboD a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I spend a day away from the post and it turns into a great discussion! Fantastic forum.
My initial question, basically is about the problem of overcoming the force of the slide stop spring with the mag follower in the .22lr mag
My concern was with the increase upwards force from a stronger mag spring reducing slide travel. I already have a good number of feed issues using standard velocity CCI's. I had not even considered changes to other forces such as the hammer spring as an option.

H2obouget - it sounds like the older style mags are much the same as the mag I have with the exception of the plastic tang to engage the slide stop (which works perfectly on the 9mm). I have pictures of the mag assembled and disassembled and need to work out how to post them.

It is a new gun. Perhaps after time and more use it will all loosen up enough to allow it to function as it appears it was designed to do.

I don't want to make too many changes at this point - in 9mm, fresh out of the box it is great and that is the main cal. that I got the pistol for. The .22 was an added bonus (cheap fun)
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Rod Slinger
Moderator



USA
1332 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  3:06:18 PM  Show Profile Send Rod Slinger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah.... all is well with the Forum. Thanks to all for the brain exercise. R S

Remembering Col. Jeff Cooper
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